In this episode:

• What makes a friendship stick (and why some fade)
• Why all friendships need an “about”
• The five reasons people have friends
• Agentic vs communal friends
• What to do if you don’t like your friend’s partner or if they don’t like yours
• Tips for going from friends to more (if you have a crush on a friend)
• Navigating imbalances in friendships
• A dilemma from a listener who’s frustrated with her friends lack of interest in activism and social issues

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Transcript

Talia Koren (00:01.154)
Welcome, Anna, to the Dating Intentionally podcast. How’s it going?

Anna Goldfarb (00:06.582)
It’s going great. I’m excited to be here.

Talia Koren (00:08.898)
Awesome. was so excited to have you here too. We have so much to talk about. I was looking through my outlet. like, I wish I could talk to her for two hours, not just one, but we’re going to get into so much today. The first question I have for you though is, what are you being intentional about lately or what do you want to be more intentional about?

Anna Goldfarb (00:27.992)
what a great question. think as we get into summer, as the seasons change, it’s such a great question to meditate on of like, I was just talking to my friends before we got in the call of like, what are we going to do this? Like, what are we all doing this summer? What’s the, what’s the intention? Like, what’s the, what’s the goal? Not even the goal, but it’s more just what, what do we want to focus on? And honestly, I’m so obsessed with friendship. I just want to talk about friendship all the time.

Anna Goldfarb (00:57.656)
Like anyone who will listen, I will be on the street corner with a bullhorn and being like, everyone needs to know this information. Cause you know, our culture is just really moving so fast. And I think it’s really, I was thinking about this over the weekend, Talia, actually about how we kind of live in a world where we could just be living our lives. And we watch a movie one weekend and you’re like, my God, I really care about this movie. I care about this movie about saving the turtles.

And then you’re like, you know what? really care about turtles. And then your friend will be like, oh, I actually ate turtle soup. I don’t really care about turtles. And you’re like, how can I be friends with you? You don’t even care about turtles. And something you didn’t even realize was on your radar, how these things influence our relationships. We live in a world where you can find a whole new thing to care about deeply. And then.

Anna Goldfarb (01:51.927)
It’s a metric to be like, well, do my friends care about this too? Like, what does this mean? My friends don’t care about turtles. Well, let me find a friend who’s really into turtles. But then you find out that your values diverge on other things. And then it’s just like the world we in.

Well, okay, that’s what you’re saying. I mean, it’s so true. And back to what you first said about how obsessed you are with friendship. It’s great that you wrote a book about it. mean, hello, your obsession led to a book, which is incredible that I just, I finished it. It’s called Modern Friendship. For listeners, I’ll link it in the show notes. I learned so much reading this. And I think it’s just, I mean, well, one thing your book taught me a lot of things, but it also taught me there are many books on friendship. Like I appreciated how many books you referenced. like, oh, there’s so many.

Talia Koren (02:36.313)
more books I could read on this topic, but it’s still such an ambiguous relationship. You talk about how it’s not like in dating and relationships, we have like all these milestones like engagement, marriage, these whatever, and friends, we don’t have that. Relationships are more defined that if you break up with friends, it kind of dissolves weirdly. So I’m glad there are folks like you out there talking about this super important relationship in our lives that we all have, but we don’t really know how to navigate.

Anna Goldfarb (03:05.952)
Yeah, it’s sort of this like almost an underground fight club of friendship people of like, we’ve been thinking about this forever. We talk about it. We, you know, I’m in WhatsApp groups with other friendship experts. Like we’re all supporting each other. It’s a small community. And I just love that it’s getting this that that friendship as a topic is getting more scrutiny and people realizing like.

You know, we acclimate to society so fast. We’re so used to smartphones. of course we have smartphones. Of course I talk with my friends over text. Of course I leave voice notes. And what I wanted to provide was some context of actually, is his, excuse me. These are historically new ways to relate to our friends. These are historically new expectations to have for our friends. And just like you said,

Anna Goldfarb (03:59.725)
really the first question was like, what are you being intentional about? And I sort of didn’t answer it. Aside from saying I’m going to be intentional about figuring out what I’m intentional about. But that’s what French it’s like we acclimate so fast to these changing norms that our ancestors never ever had to deal with. Your grandma did not have to figure out what it meant to be left out of the group chat. You know, like she didn’t even have to try that hard for friends.

Anna Goldfarb (04:29.848)
She probably.

Talia Koren (04:30.921)
Like, can I have a confession? I’m not in any group chats. I’m just not. I don’t do group chats. I’m just not that kind of person. Oh wait, no, I lied. I’m in one, but it’s only for planning.

Anna Goldfarb (04:45.134)
You know, group chats, I think, can be a burden. I’ve muted my group chats because I don’t want a million notifications. And then it’s sort of like homework. I’ve got to read all these texts. Like, what’s everyone saying? Oh, do I have to weigh in? Is anyone noticing that I’m not weighing in? Do I have to add my two cents? It is stressful. it’s not always like, this is something our grandparents and beyond never had to deal with.

Talia Koren (05:04.589)
my God, that sounds so stressful.

Anna Goldfarb (05:14.988)
We have, I mean, it’s all about trade-offs, right? Like we have so much flexibility about who we can befriend. We can talk about, and we have so many more interests as a culture than ever before. Like my great grandma and her shtetl in Romania, like what was she into? Like, I’m really into, what, like milking a cow? I mean, what is there to do? And I was thinking like I could watch a movie, get really.

Talia Koren (05:38.15)
Yeah.

Anna Goldfarb (05:42.763)
activated about it and then be like, well, do my friends even care about this thing about me? I’m a turtle supporter now. Can we even be friends? And our great grandparents did not, generally speaking, have to deal with any of those kinds of shifting identity things.

Talia Koren (06:01.211)
So on that note, one of my favorite insights about your book and your work is that friendship needs an about. And that really like sparked for me, I’m sure it’s far for people who write your book already. People know this concept. was like, like you need your friendship needs to be about something. Can you talk a little bit more about that?

Anna Goldfarb (06:18.092)
You know, that’s a great question. I set out writing this book because I had a lot of questions. when and the first one of the first things I learned about friendships is that they can end at any time for any reason. Friendships are very fragile. Or they can be very fragile. And what the next thing I learned was that it takes 200 hours to go from stranger to close friend. It takes a lot of time. So.

Talia Koren (06:45.467)
Yeah, I’m trying to do like time math. Like how many weeks is that? How many like friend dates is that? Yeah, it’s a lot of time.

Anna Goldfarb (06:48.596)
Yes, that’s so much time. Friends take a lot of time to coalesce. Friendships take a lot of time to coalesce. So then my next thought, well, how do friendships get those 200 hours in? And I was reading C.S. Lewis, his book, The Four Loves, and he says every friendship needs an about, and it can be as simple as dominoes or white mice. But you need

a topic, you need something that you can discuss with another person that you both are so geeked out about that you will tell your partners or your children, need I need to go see him with this friend because. And so, yes, every friendship needs an about. the second part is that the about needs to be clear and compelling to both people.

Talia Koren (07:42.076)
got it. Okay, so these mutually interesting and compelling to both people and needs to be just very clear, like our friendship is about talking about the bachelor. So okay, so I’ll give you an example for my life. I have a weird, not weird, I have a unique and very special community in that my core group of friends lives within five minutes away from me and we see each other twice a week, every single week. We have a girls night every Tuesday, all couples, pretty much.

Talia Koren (08:10.555)
Girls night every Tuesday and then we have like family dinner every Wednesday and we rotate houses. This has been going on for years. And this is thanks to my husband. My husband, it’s his grad school friends and their partners that have come in. I know it’s so special, but like that is the about. I don’t think I would be friends with, I wouldn’t have necessarily chosen them on the street because there was no, like they’re all PhDs. They work in like aerospace. Most of them work at Google, you know? And like.

Anna Goldfarb (08:15.197)
Aww.

Talia Koren (08:38.897)
I am an entrepreneur. like have no, there’s really no hardly any common thread there. But hanging out with them every single week for two years, we now are all really close and it’s like amazing. And we, you know, have tons of summer plans altogether, which is so special. And I feel like it is, does feel very fragile because the second people start having kids, I’m like, my God, what’s going to happen? You know, it’s all going to go to shit. But yeah, that’s like anyway, what the girls for the girls night are about is that we watch the bachelor.

Anna Goldfarb (08:42.67)
Yeah.

Talia Koren (09:08.421)
That is the about, and that’s great. I love it. Yeah.

Anna Goldfarb (09:10.2)
Well, it’s clear and it’s compelling, you know, and to simplify the desire and friendship has been transformative for me. I used to take things so personally. If I didn’t hear from a friend, I would tell myself all sorts of stories about what I was seeing. And, you know, people can say like, don’t take it personally, your friend’s busy.

Anna Goldfarb (09:36.441)
But how can you not take it personally? Like my friend is clearly hanging out with other people. It’s not me. Like it’s really easy to internalize that as rejection. And my hope by illuminating, this is how people make decisions about their time. If friendships require a huge investment in time, how do we decide how to spend our time? And that was one of my biggest questions is like, why are friendships suffering?

what our friendships a different kind of relationship than others? Like, why is this this particular relationship so, so challenging to navigate right now? And it really comes down to that about and this, the other thing I learned about abouts about abouts is that abouts can change, be outdated or be absent. And that helped explain why a friendship is active.

or why it’s more of a nostalgic friendship. Why is it something that we aren’t spending a lot of energy maintaining? And it’s not because my friends don’t love me, it’s that our about is outdated. Our about was about high school and whatever, dealing with boyfriends, family. It’s like we’ve outgrown that. So yeah, it’s a new lens.

Talia Koren (11:01.169)
So okay, can the about be just about catching up on each other’s lives?

Anna Goldfarb (11:06.894)
Yes, well, here’s what I found helpful. Also in the book, I talk about a study from 2021 that identified the five main reasons people make friends. First is career. Second is meeting. You want to meet people to hook up with and date. Not as compelling when you’re coupled up, by the way. It’s more compelling when you’re single. Third is what they call desirable qualities.

And that means someone’s, hilarious, fun, there’s chemistry, and you share hobbies and passions. The fourth is emotional support. And the fifth is sociability, which is like your, you know, your dinners. It’s like, we’re just out with our friends, like we’re just out and about. So those are great abouts of our friendship. So when you think about The Bachelor, well, that’s desirable qualities, that’s fun, we have the same hobbies and passions.

And you have sociability of we’re out and about and all just being in the mix. So you can see why you prioritize those friendships more often because they’re ticking those boxes for you. And if there’s also emotional support, well, that just makes the friendship stronger. If you’re in the same career, well, that makes it even stronger. So you can deconstruct like, why does a friendship? Why do you keep your your best friends close?

Talia Koren (12:12.987)
Mm-hmm.

Anna Goldfarb (12:29.868)
It’s usually they take a lot of those boxes and tell you what’s interesting that I learned. Talia, sorry, I’m so afraid of saying your name wrong. Is that those are the same reasons that friendships can fade. Is if we’re not in the same career, if you are a teacher and I’m an architect, I’m more likely to maybe seek out friends that are in my same line of work that can help me. Meeting, if you’re all married and you’re not looking to date and then someone’s

Talia Koren (12:36.721)
That’s okay. Very good.

Anna Goldfarb (12:59.66)
still single, that can be a challenge of what’s our friendship about if we’re not meeting people. You know, hobbies and passions. If you decide you’re really into turtles and you’re not into bachelor anymore, it’s like, what are we going to do together? So just as these are the reasons why we seek one another out, these are the reasons why we might distance ourselves from certain friendships too.

Talia Koren (13:21.713)
Got it. That makes sense. And it is kind of sad to think about the absence of an abound or you kind of lose that or a friend just becomes inactive because things have changed and it is sad. We don’t have that clear cut conversation necessarily. It’s like, okay, guess our friendship has been downgraded. We don’t really have much to talk about anymore. And I recently visited friends in New York. By the way, I just went to New York to visit friends. That was the whole purpose of my trip. And people were like, oh.

Like they didn’t even occur to them that could be a reason to like, I was like, what? Yeah, like I’m from here. I’m gonna see my friends once a year at least. But there were some, I guess dinners or hangouts with friends where I’m like, you know what? This isn’t as compelling anymore for me. Like there really isn’t, we’re kind of forcing it right now. I can feel that.

Anna Goldfarb (14:07.438)
Hmm.

Anna Goldfarb (14:12.418)
Yeah. And you have a few choices of, I renegotiate the friendship? It’s like, what have you guys been obsessed with lately? Is there any overlap? What have I been obsessed with? I also learned that there’s also two different kinds of friendships. One’s called agentic, and one’s called communal. And agentic is friendships that are more task-oriented, we’re working on the same project together.

Talia Koren (14:20.719)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

was a great question.

Anna Goldfarb (14:42.286)
we, and those, tend to drop those agentic friendships when the costs outweigh the benefit. Those are ones we’re more likely to drop. So, you know, your friend at work and you get along really great, but then they leave the job and you’re like, well, you know, she hasn’t helped me in her new job. So you dropped the friendship. Communal is more about emotional support. Those are the people you hang out with on your free time. Those are the people you’re more likely to spend a Friday night with or a Saturday night with.

you know, as opposed to your daytime, agentic friends. And the way I look at it is who are you more likely to wear a bra around? Like I wear a bra with my agentic friends. We are working together. We’re co, you know, we’re like, but if you’re my communal friend, my emotional support friend, the bras flying off, we’re having a sleepover. Like those are the kinds of parts of yourself you can share with the different friends.

Anna Goldfarb (15:42.603)
So as you think about your friendships, your old friendships, it’s like, would I hang out with them with my bra on or my bra off? Like, what would be most comfortable? And then you can kind of discern from there of what’s our about. it compelling or not? And with those, that rubric, you can really understand your friendships on an entirely molecular level of like, what is this friendship to me? What do you think of that? What I just said to you?

Talia Koren (16:09.745)
I mean, hold on. Sorry. I think that’s so helpful. Like as you’re talking, I’m thinking about the friends that I made when I was living in Seattle who I used to boulder with. And so there was one friend in particular who we actually went to high school together, didn’t stay in touch at all. We didn’t have anything in common in high school, but she got me into bouldering and we would go like once or twice a week together. But then I moved and we fell out of touch because that was the like anchor. That was the agentic.

that was keeping us together. We didn’t have an emotional connection really. It was just about like, let’s try this route. Let’s go to this gym. Let’s go, like, let’s go rock climbing outside. Like it was, it wasn’t really about more than that. And that’s fine. I don’t think that, like the value of friendship doesn’t need to necessarily be emotional to me at least. I’m happy to have agentic friends. I love those kinds of friends. So, but it did make me sad. It’s like, yeah, like have, I just, we lost touch. We just didn’t have a reason to keep talking.

Anna Goldfarb (16:59.276)
Yeah. And when you my whole thing is giving language to these helping helping people understand that there’s more nuance to friendships when you say like, my friends, like you said, it’s ambiguous. And when you start thinking of like, do we hang out? Do I hang out my leisure time with this? Is this a Saturday night person or a Tuesday morning person? Like those friendships are different. The reason for the friendship is different and the reasons that they might

fade are different too. So it’s really helped me understand that even within active and nostalgic friendships, it’s like, well, what do we hang out like during the daytime? Is it leisure time? Or is it both, which is the best kind of friend where you can do the daytime stuff. Also nighttime stuff. And that’s why my best friend is my best friend is because we do we can do all of it. We can do both. And that’s why she’s priceless to me.

Talia Koren (17:52.751)
Right, can do both. Yeah.

beautiful. Quick question, do you think that in dating and relationships we also need and about is that as important?

Anna Goldfarb (18:08.462)
I mean, certainly, romantic relationships are a kind of friendship. There’s overlap. But what I go to is that one of the most delicious things about friendships is that it’s a relationship of peers, of equals. And it’s one of the few adult relationships we have where it’s of equals. It’s not a boss. It’s not an employee. It’s not a parent. It’s not a child.

Talia Koren (18:31.601)
Mmm.

Anna Goldfarb (18:35.49)
But with your romantic spouse, it may not always enjoy that equality. You know, there’s still power dynamics, like, who’s the breadwinner? Who’s the, who’s doing which chores? Who’s in charge of the children? There’s dynamics.

Talia Koren (18:50.033)
Right, you’re like, you’re building a life together and you’re not necessarily doing that with your friends. There’s a little bit more of that separation, yeah.

Anna Goldfarb (18:52.759)
Yes.

Yes. And both relationships are voluntary in a way. when there’s legal, I mean, there’s paperwork involved with a spouse. I’m married. I know it’s very different, you know, than a friendship. I know my friend can move away. My friend could, you know, meet someone else and follow their dreams. But that’s not the contract with my spouse is we do it together.

Anna Goldfarb (19:23.47)
That’s something, that’s catastrophe.

Talia Koren (19:23.759)
Yeah, no, that’s a good distinction. I appreciate that. Because I was really, as I read, I’m like, does dating have to happen about? But I agree, I think your relationship kind of becomes your main about, and the life you have together more than your interests. Yeah, it’s different.

Anna Goldfarb (19:34.703)
Yeah, and it’s a very different role. It’s a different role. It’s a role of companion. Like my spouse is my companion. almost every dinner together, we plan trips together, we share money. I don’t do those things with my best friend. I do not eat every dinner with her. So it.

Talia Koren (19:52.687)
Nah. Or share money.

Anna Goldfarb (19:56.941)
But it is interesting to think about and about as far as like, are we like doing together? Why does our why does one romantic relationship feel better than another? It’s like, what do we have in common? And that’s going to change. But friendships are much more fragile. You know, friendships are more fragile.

Talia Koren (20:07.664)
Mm-hmm.

Talia Koren (20:15.481)
I agree. Okay, so one thing that came up that a lot for my audience was the theme of imbalance in friendships. So this is, and it’s interesting, I have people in my life who have complained about this and people in my audience who’ve kind of brought this up and it’s like, why does it so often feel like one person is giving more in a friendship? And what’s really going on there?

Anna Goldfarb (20:38.69)
You know, I will say it’s not, you know, I’ve reported on this and I’ve thought about it and I’ve asked experts about this very question. And what experts told me as an expert now is that it’s not always a bad thing if a friendship is lopsided. Sometimes a friend is in a season where they cannot prioritize friendships. So they have a newborn. So for a season,

Talia Koren (20:39.557)
Or like initiating more. Yeah, sorry.

Anna Goldfarb (21:05.88)
their friends might be the one reaching out more because they’re not in survival mode. They’re not the ones that are a new parent. There might be seasons where one friend has health issues and has other things going on. So it’s not always like a bad thing that it’s lopsided. It’s a bad thing if you feel bad about it. That’s what the bad thing is. And that could be because your friendship has changed and you’re

Talia Koren (21:27.921)
Okay.

Anna Goldfarb (21:36.269)
haven’t had a conversation about is this friendship like, how can this friendship meet your needs better? And I know it’s a little wooden to say, but that’s the idea of, normally, like normally I call, know, sometimes you have friends that keep calling you and you’re like, honestly, I’d rather get a voice note, but you don’t tell your friend. I would prefer to get voice notes. So your friend is like, or is like, hey, let’s go for happy hour. Let’s go for happy hour. And you’re trying to take a step back from drinking.

Talia Koren (21:47.365)
Now I like this.

Anna Goldfarb (22:04.876)
or something, or you’d rather use that time to work out, but you don’t communicate that. So your friend keeps extending invitations that aren’t compelling to you. So…

Talia Koren (22:13.195)
Mm-hmm. All right, so but if you’re the friend who keeps being like, let’s hang out, let’s hang out, let’s hang out, and the other friend never reciprocates or starts, initiates a plan, do you say something at that point?

Anna Goldfarb (22:25.582)
I would think my invitations are not compelling. If I have to keep pinging my friend, do you want to get together? Do you want to get together? That means my invitation is not compelling enough. Maybe it’s too vague. Maybe it’s, hey, Talia, I’d love to get together for lunch. What’s your, what’s your, are you around? And you’re like, get together for lunch. But why, why do you want to, what do you want to talk about? I’m busy. So, but if I said, Talia, I’m thinking about, you know, going on,

Anna Goldfarb (22:55.51)
a trip to New York City to visit friends. I want to hear about how your trip went and like what your advice would be. I’m just like spitballing. But if I gave you more information, you might decide that’s more compelling to you or tell you I really want to hear about your podcast. I want to hear about how it’s going. How can I help you? Do you want to start an accountability group where we like share potential guests for like whatever? If I if I have a friend who’s not responding to my invitations.

Talia Koren (23:02.213)
Yeah, yeah.

Anna Goldfarb (23:24.406)
My invitations are not moving the needle. There is something that this person is not connecting with. It’s not… Yeah.

Talia Koren (23:27.153)
Got it. Okay, so then, okay, could approach be like, hey, feel like I’ve been asking you to hang out more, like it’s been kind of there’s some balance. Is there something you’d rather, is there an activity you wanna try? Like is it worth opening the question, like what do you wanna do? Like, yeah.

Anna Goldfarb (23:46.777)
Yes. Any restaurants you want to try? Is there movies you want? Like any movies you want to see? I’d love to go to the movies. Like that’s how people say yes to things is Tanya. I really want to see Mission Impossible. I’ll go with you. Do I want to see it. really? Well, how’s Thursday? Boom. Like it’s not a huge back and forth. And people aren’t usually given explicit feedback about their invitations. They’re usually just blown off or people bail. That’s.

Anna Goldfarb (24:15.778)
telling you your invitation was not compelling to them. Make it easy for your friends to say yes to you. Say what’s important to you this season. This summer, what do you want to be doing more of? How can I help? Do you want to go to more museums? What if we had a little museum club where we try different like.

Talia Koren (24:33.515)
Right. But then, okay. So like, but going a little deeper, that’s really helpful. Going a little deeper though, it’s like, I did hear this question of like, I feel resentful that my friend isn’t asking me to hang out ever.

Anna Goldfarb (24:46.574)
Well, I would say to that is how are you helping their life in a way that they would want to bring you close? This is how people work. You know, my friend calls me because I care deeply about what she cares about. She cares about her children and her dog. So, oh, you know, I’m going to go see my my daughter’s birthday. Oh, I want to come. I want to help you or all like your dog has to like have a go walk your dog with you like.

Talia Koren (24:54.031)
Hmm.

Talia Koren (24:57.829)
Right.

Anna Goldfarb (25:16.574)
I, my friend has a full life and has a lot of different roles that she plays. My job as an adult friend is to support her in those other roles. And I think where people get tripped up is when you’re younger, being the friend is the role. It’s like, you are my best friend. That is the, that is the, the draw. That’s the marquee on the matinee throwing a lot of words out. Like that’s the vibe.

Talia Koren (25:42.019)
Yeah.

Anna Goldfarb (25:44.547)
But it transitions after 30. The job of a friend transitions from not, am the main character of your life, to I am here to support you as you go through these other things. And that’s called social identity support. I talk about that in the book. And I interviewed Carolyn Weiss, who is a professor who did a study about how to predict who would become best friends in four years time. She had a small group of college students.

And she found that students that practice social identity support were much more likely to be friends in four years. And the way we do that with our friends is to say, I want to know about you. I want to know about traditions you have. I want to know about the foods you ate as a child. I want to know about your roles as a wife and a daughter and an aunt. I want to support you in those roles. That’s very different than I want to go out for drinks. Are you around?

Talia Koren (26:36.379)
Mm-hmm.

Talia Koren (26:44.369)
Yeah, yeah, no, for sure. I love the specificity of this and also just, like I said earlier, like making, yeah, I said offline, like making your friend feel really seen in a way. It’s like, oh, like this person really sees what I’m going through and that’s why I can feel safe and close with them because they’re there for me. But it’s like, do you keep doing that with a friend who does not return that energy?

Anna Goldfarb (26:54.86)
Yeah.

Anna Goldfarb (27:06.446)
Well, I would say like, what is your friendship about? Is it clear and compelling? And start from there of where is desire? Why isn’t there a desire on the part of this other friend to bring me close? And there’s clearly an issue with desire. Your friend is not yearning to hang out with you. Doesn’t mean anything you’re a bad person. Doesn’t mean like anything. Your friend could be going through depression, you know, and not reaching out to anyone. Your friend could be just lost their job.

Talia Koren (27:09.797)
Mm-hmm.

Talia Koren (27:15.921)
Okay. Yeah.

Talia Koren (27:30.639)
Right.

Anna Goldfarb (27:35.304)
or got a promotion and is miserable. Like, who knows what’s going on with our friend, but our job is to figure out why is the desire not there? Is this something I can help or is this something where they’re not in a season to invest in friendships right now? I need to find people who are available.

Talia Koren (27:49.979)
Right?

I just love the way, I never heard anyone talk about this this way of just this desire factor. I’ve never even thought of that, the desire factor in the friendship and giving them a compelling reason to be your friend that’s more than just I care about you as a person because yeah, like, yeah, we care about our friends as people. I think that’s like pretty baseline, but that isn’t enough.

Anna Goldfarb (28:14.434)
You know, I think there’s an entitlement to when you are close friends with someone you expect that closeness to go on indefinitely in like like we’re in a vacuum. But that’s not how that’s not how this works is I there I have no entitlement to another person’s time and energy and love. It’s more what can I bring for you? Talia you I’m interested in you feeling like I am the

Anna Goldfarb (28:43.278)
best friend to you, not to everyone in the world. It’s this is why I’m Talia’s best friend because I care so deeply about you, but I’m helping you with things that you care about. That’s why you’ll keep me around. If I came to you like, well, I’m bored. I’m lonely. I want to drink. I want to have a laugh with you. I’m that’s not compelling to you. You’re busy. You have all sorts of stuff going on. Why is it your problem that I want to be entertained?

Talia Koren (28:47.482)
Right.

Talia Koren (29:06.8)
Yeah.

Talia Koren (29:11.857)
I mean, what I’ve done when, because I just moved to the Bay Area two years ago and people want to get to know me. I’m online, I’m out there, people reach out to me all the time from my Instagram. They’re like, I’m in the Bay Area, let’s hang out. So there are a few people who I will definitely take them up on. We do a video call first. Usually there’s usually some other reason to connect and then they try to be my friend. And then they do the whole, let’s go out to dinner. I’m like, you know what, I don’t want to do dinner. I take the charge. like, I don’t want to do dinner.

Let’s go workout. I’m way more interested in having a workout together and like lunch. Like let’s go to yoga class. Let’s go to Pilates. Let’s go do something active or hike. I don’t want to sit and have a dinner with you. Like I just don’t. You know, so.

Anna Goldfarb (29:42.808)
Yes!

Anna Goldfarb (29:50.799)
Taya, what you did was negotiate. You are modeling for these other people. This is how we negotiate a friendship. It’s not the same as us in our 20s. Like we’re not in our 20s anymore where we have all this time. We have so much leisure time. And that’s the draw is like, I got nothing going on. Are you around Friday? Yeah, sure. That’s not the world we live in. It’s like, I don’t want to go out for dinner. You know, there’s been a real shift.

Talia Koren (30:00.635)
Hmm

Right.

Talia Koren (30:14.379)
That’s it. That’s not now, no.

Anna Goldfarb (30:20.59)
towards friendships being about favors and helping one another to friendships as entertainment of let’s go out for drinks, let’s go out, let’s go out. And that can feel really hollow of like, why am I making time to go to all these dinners? Like to talk about what? Like I don’t want to be spending my time like that. So you did a fantastic job of negotiating and saying, well, here’s what I am looking for. And boom.

Talia Koren (30:47.419)
Well, I think my practice in dating has really translated to friendships. I do the same thing for a date. If a guy suggested a date I didn’t want to do, I’d like, you know what, thanks for the invite, let’s do this instead. And that definitely has helped me with friendships. on that note, I do want to talk about dating because I mean, the number one question I get, one that I never really know how to answer. And I have a take, but I need to hear yours, which is like, can you…

Anna Goldfarb (30:55.918)
Yeah.

Talia Koren (31:14.587)
date your friends? Can you go from friends to more? What is your take on this? Yeah. But okay, sorry. Well, yes, but like, there’s that, I’m sure there’s someone listening right now who has a crush on their friend and is like, but what if I ruin the friendship, Anna? What if I ruin it? What do do?

Anna Goldfarb (31:20.302)
Certainly, why not? Of course.

Anna Goldfarb (31:32.911)
You know, I am I have become really great friends with ex-boyfriends. Actually, my ex-boyfriend is was one of my one of my close friends. We still chat all the time. I am good at being friends with my exes because I have trust of we’ll figure it out. You know?

Not for everyone. Not everyone deserves to be friends after, but I think it’s totally appropriate to have feelings for your friends. I’ve gotten shot down from a friend where I was like, I talk about in the book of I had a crush on one of my best friends. A guy was one of my best friends and my other best friend swooped in and took him. And that was horrible. I had to explain.

to my guy best friend why I was so upset. And it’s like, well, I have a crush on you and I’m so sorry about that, but I do. And he’s like, well, you’re like my sister, I’m not gonna date you. And I said, okay, let me lick my wounds. Let me like tend to my wounded ego, hang tight, I’ll be back in a little bit. And that’s what I did. He’s like, all the time you need to get over it. And then three months later, I had a new boyfriend. I’m like, okay, I’m over it, we’re good. And we could be friends again.

Talia Koren (32:55.333)
I love this, what you’re saying so much, because this aligns with what I tell people too. It’s like, you need to trust that your friendship is strong enough to handle maybe a rejection if someone doesn’t have those feelings for you and that you can come back to it. Otherwise, if it can’t handle it, was your friendship ever really that strong? Like, yeah, I don’t think it’s that big of a deal to, yes, you are putting yourself out there. It’s vulnerable. It’s scary. You’re really like,

Anna Goldfarb (33:17.079)
Yeah.

Talia Koren (33:24.613)
There is definitely more at stake with making a move on one of your friends than like a stranger you met online. But if you already have that foundation of trust, you know you can come back to it after.

Anna Goldfarb (33:35.297)
It was mortifying in the moment, but I got over it. Like feelings. And I had to know. was like, well, I was looking at him as a safe space. Like, well, why don’t we go? Why don’t we get like get together? And he’s like, no way. And I’m like, OK, that’s fair. I like, well, give me a few months. Let me like get my shit together. Let me go like figure out what I need to figure out. And then I’ll ping you when I’m ready. And we did. And it was fine. And it’s not weird, but that’s

Anna Goldfarb (34:03.928)
that requires so much maturity, like an unreal amount of maturity to be like, okay, I’m gonna figure this out. Like, know, one of my six hard truths about friendship is it requires maturity. You need to be mature. And if you’re gonna try to date your friends, it requires you to be mature, it requires you to be authentic, requires you to say, actually, my ego’s feeling a little wounded.

Talia Koren (34:07.439)
Yeah. Yeah.

Anna Goldfarb (34:32.728)
Give me some time to get over it. Like that’s how your friendship stays. A friendship is when you’re authentic. So I think you could definitely date a friend. I’m sure that’s happened.

Talia Koren (34:38.894)
Yeah, right.

Talia Koren (34:44.305)
So what are some examples? Yeah, no, it’s definitely happened, but it’s like people, get messages every single day about this and like people are like, oh my God, my friend, like I’m really into him or her, her, but like, I don’t know how, like what’s that example? What’s, what would your advice be like, what’s a move they can make? How can they start this? How can they, do they just ask them out directly on a date? Do they just like get drunk and kiss them? Like what’s hap, what’s the move?

Anna Goldfarb (35:07.81)
I mean, let me think. I think that when you’re together and you’re in a good mood, you can be like, would you ever be open to seeing if there was more here?

And just kind of framing it like I’m trying to think how I talk to my anyone in my life of like, would you be open? Like, is there anything here? Or tell me to like get lost. And you know, and I would say take the pressure off as much as you can. Like don’t throw down rose petals. You’re like, hey, by the way, I’m totally ambushing you. I’ve had feelings for you for three years, never mentioned it like.

Talia Koren (35:33.434)
Yeah.

Yeah, and then.

Anna Goldfarb (35:51.639)
I think the more pressure you can take off, the better of just, is there anything here? Like, yes, no, thumbs up, thumbs down. That’s what I do with my nieces. Like, you into that? Yes or no? And just try to take the pressure off as much as you can. And I think when you’ve built it up in your mind for so long, for like years or something,

Talia Koren (36:11.014)
Yeah.

Anna Goldfarb (36:17.516)
That’s when the pressure is really high. I mean, you’re putting a lot of pressure on this person. So I would try to be as low key as possible and just say, would you ever think there’s anything more here? Am I crazy? And they’re like, my god, you’re totally crazy. You’re like my sister. I’m like, OK, cool. That was just a vibe check, just making sure. And then see if they start, if they come around. Actually, that’s how I got my first boyfriend. We were friends. And he.

Talia Koren (36:43.56)
okay then, yeah.

Anna Goldfarb (36:43.79)
asked me out and I was like, ew, what are you crazy? Like, oh my God, never. And then I was like, wait, actually you are kind of cute. And then we became, then I was like, then I was the one who’s like, actually, yeah, I do want to date you. So he kept it cool. He took the rejection on the chin. He’s like, all right, that’s fine. I still want to be around you. I’m like, oh, wait a minute. I do want you. I’m back. I’m back. I’m back in. So people are, you know, sort of unpredictable.

Talia Koren (36:55.579)
nice, yeah I guess.

Talia Koren (37:05.489)
That’s so cute.

Anna Goldfarb (37:12.716)
irrational. But the more chill you are, and the less pressure you put on it, you model for them safety, like if you model emotional safety of I can handle rejection, that will make you more attractive as a partner.

Talia Koren (37:18.865)
That’s great advice.

Talia Koren (37:28.059)
So true. And also we have to also say, what if it works out? What if they’re like, yeah, maybe there is. And then you go on a date and you feel it out and then maybe you decide after your date or two that it’s not really a great fit and you can go back to being friends.

Anna Goldfarb (37:40.015)
Yeah. Yeah, it’s just like no pressure. Just wanted to see if there’s anything there. Back to programming. See what see see what kickball on Friday. Like I think we can set the tone. We have so much power here to to model. Like it’s going to be fine. I’m not going to be weird. Like, yes, I want. Yes, I want to tap that ass. Whatever. I want to tap a lot of ass.

Talia Koren (37:48.219)
Yeah, exactly.

Talia Koren (37:59.612)
Yeah. Yeah.

Talia Koren (38:04.741)
Not gonna be weird about it though.

Anna Goldfarb (38:06.222)
I want to talk a lot of ass right now. I’m looking at yours you interested or not

Talia Koren (38:12.515)
Love it, my gosh. Okay, another question that came up is, okay, how do you support your friend when they are off getting engaged and married and you are single and you’re like, how am I still single? What’s happening?

Anna Goldfarb (38:13.838)
You

Anna Goldfarb (38:29.944)
Well, I think it’s completely normal to feel abandoned. That’s what it’s going to feel like. I’ve been on that side. I’ve been on, I suppose, both sides. But usually the single friend feels abandoned and they sense that their friendship is changing. And it’s really scary. And there is a lot of grief involved. You’re grieving the friendship that you had. You’re grieving the friend that you had who was, you know, before their identity changed.

Talia Koren (38:35.675)
Mm-hmm.

Anna Goldfarb (38:59.31)
By marrying, excuse me, like your identity changes a lot. not just, I mean, you add more to the plate. You’re a daughter-in-law now, you’re an in-law, you’re a spouse, a, you know, maybe an auntie when you weren’t before. Like there’s just all these roles that are changing. And the best thing to do is to keep calm and reassure your friend.

Talia Koren (39:17.573)
Yeah.

Anna Goldfarb (39:24.45)
Like I’m always here for you. My door is always open for you. Like I know that you’re going through different things. This is a huge time for you in your life. And I just want you to know I’m not going anywhere. And that’s healing for both the friends to hear and to say is to say, I know this is like a changing season and I love you. My door is always open for you. And at the same time,

start looking at who else is in your start investing in other friendships that might meet you where you’re at today that might have more time to do what you want to do so you don’t feel as abandoned by your one friend who now cannot give you the time and energy that you were used to having from her.

Talia Koren (40:10.915)
Yeah, man, it is so tough when you are like, you feel like you’re the one single friend in your group too. Like that is a lot to carry, a lot to carry while you’re also trying to be happy for your friends and support them and like realize that everyone’s on their own path and it’s not going to line up perfectly. Yeah.

Anna Goldfarb (40:28.91)
It’s really, really hard. I didn’t meet my husband till I was 35. Like both of my sisters had met, had weddings before me. And it was, I went to all my sister’s weddings alone. Like it was really, really hard. So I, I’d say this with like total empathy of, listen, it’s going to be hard, but it’s not going to feel that way forever. That’s something I didn’t have the perspective to know. I thought it was like this permanent.

Talia Koren (40:42.875)
Yeah.

Talia Koren (40:55.759)
Mmm.

Anna Goldfarb (40:56.148)
storm cloud over my life. And it’s like, this is just the season where people, it’s inevitable of people are figuring out like what their romantic relationships are. There’s a lot of flux, a lot of churn. No one’s doing anything wrong. And the best thing you can do is tell your friend that you love them and you’ll be there for them. And I’m hoping that will give you peace.

Talia Koren (41:00.731)
Yeah.

Anna Goldfarb (41:21.174)
and take the pressure off you feeling like you have to be at all their things. Like you have to be by their side for all these changes. But I’ve been friends. I’ve had friendships for over, you know, 20, 25 years. They’ve weathered marriages. They’ve weathered kids. We’re still really close. I just heard from one of my oldest best friends yesterday. We’re texting. She got a new cat like it’s possible, but you need to have a flexible mindset. And in my book, I

Spend a lot of time talking about that. Like your friendships in adulthood are not going to be what you thought they were. Doesn’t mean anything’s wrong. It just means we have to be more flexible. Your friendship is changing. Grieve it. Like take time to grieve it. But it doesn’t mean anything’s over. It’s just changing.

Talia Koren (42:09.573)
That’s amazing advice. And yeah, it’s it’s really hard. right. There isn’t really anything other than just acknowledging it that you can do to soften that and just kind of move through that the best way you can. There isn’t any way to avoid this, you know? Yeah. Yeah.

Anna Goldfarb (42:16.974)
Yeah.

Anna Goldfarb (42:23.118)
And also, will say that there’s still the sometimes that you it’s easy to get into the thinking of, my friend’s getting married. It’s happily ever after. She’ll she doesn’t need me anymore. Not the case. They will still have problems and obstacles and challenges and they will still need you. You know, I think that’s a that’s a lie. You tell yourself to be like, well, she doesn’t need me anymore. She’s married. She’s with this whole new family. She doesn’t need me. Not.

Talia Koren (42:35.31)
No, not true.

Anna Goldfarb (42:52.046)
Not true at all. Let her go spend time with these other people. She will snap back to you and be like, I need to talk to you. This family’s crazy. Oh my God, my in-laws are driving me nuts. Like then she will still need you. Promise. I promise you she will still need you. And if anything, you’ll be a relief because you’re someone who knew her before these changes. Your friendship is only going to get more valuable. I think people think their friendship is going to get less valuable.

Talia Koren (42:53.648)
Yeah.

Talia Koren (43:04.409)
Of course, of course.

Anna Goldfarb (43:20.204)
when your friend goes through these different stages. But no girl, your friendship’s getting more valuable because you knew her from when she was, you know, this different version. And that’s going to be, I mean, just invaluable to her throughout her life.

Talia Koren (43:34.642)
Yeah, amazing advice. And okay, one more question and then I wanna get into a dating dilemma and that is what do you do when your friends do not like the person you’re dating? Because that one also comes up a lot too. If they’re like, know, and also it’s like, should they even say have an opinion? Should they even say anything? I mean, this is of course, barring like really dangerous situations. It’s just more like, I don’t like his vibe or I don’t like her, the way like she dresses or like, or whatever. I don’t like what she’s into. Like not anything.

Anna Goldfarb (43:55.8)
Of course. Right.

Talia Koren (44:02.767)
really seriously dangerous, but just the surface level stuff.

Anna Goldfarb (44:06.348)
It’s going to happen. It’s totally going to happen. You may not like your kid, your friend’s kids. You might be like your kids suck. Like, listen, it’s going to happen. It’s you’re not always going to like everyone in your friend’s life. And my my approach has been like, I’m here for my friend no matter what. And really just trying to make the best of it.

Talia Koren (44:11.569)
no.

Can’t wait.

Anna Goldfarb (44:32.494)
And listen, it’s not easy. It is alienating to see your friend pick a partner that you would be like, really that guy. I mean, one thing you can do, I try to take the be gentle and be like, well, what are his good parts? Like, what am I missing? Like, what? What do you like about him? What a really important thing I learned is that again, saying this, there’s no like, you know, abuse or anything like really concerning going on.

Talia Koren (44:47.395)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Anna Goldfarb (45:02.772)
is that I wrote an article for the New York Times about how to give advice people will be delighted to take. And what I learned about advice giving is people tend to take advice in three situations. First is if it’s expensive to maintain and the problem’s complicated, like a lawyer. Like a lawyer said, like, okay, cool, let’s do what your lawyer says. Second is if the person is well-trained and has extreme confidence in the advice.

like a doctor when a doctor says, you know, give up smoking, you’re going to listen. The third thing I learned was that people tend to disregard advice when they already know what they’re going to do. So my advice, you know, ironically, is that if your friend has already decided to stay with this person, there is not much influence. There isn’t as much influence as you might think.

Talia Koren (46:01.755)
Mm-hmm.

Anna Goldfarb (46:02.08)
If your friend is already determined to stay with this person, like, that’s the reality and it’s on us to deal with it as best as we can. We might want to distance ourselves, might want to say, can we just hang out just us? you have to deal with, that’s the reality, but we cannot influence our friends as much as we think when they already know if they’re going to stay.

Talia Koren (46:26.255)
Wow, that’s, yeah, that’s so true. I love that. Just kind of let go a little bit. Like, you know what? Let me just see other ways I can support them. What about if you are the one, what if you’re the one in the relationship and your friend is kind of giving you shit about who you’re dating? Do you set a boundary there? Like, can you be like, hey, like, can you not?

Anna Goldfarb (46:35.17)
Yeah.

Anna Goldfarb (46:44.012)
Well, study sh-

I mean, studies show that we tend to let go of friendships that are a threat to our romantic relationships. Those are the ones first to go. Those are the ones on the chopping block. So knowing that it’s very risky to pipe up because if you’re creating problems or trying think, you know better than your friend of what they need. That’s the real

Talia Koren (47:01.967)
Mmm.

Anna Goldfarb (47:17.87)
I don’t want to say sin, but that’s that’s what’s going to be uncomfy for your friend is that you’re saying you know them better than they do. I know you better than you. This guy’s not a good fit for X, Y, Z reasons. You’re going to alienate your friends. Another thing is friendships don’t like friends don’t like to be dominated. So when you start telling your friend, here’s what you should do, here’s what you need to do. Your friend’s going to recoil and be like, I don’t want this.

Talia Koren (47:18.129)
Mmm.

Talia Koren (47:34.214)
Thank you.

Anna Goldfarb (47:44.751)
this from a friend. Like you’re supposed to just be on my level, not telling me that I’m messing everything up. So it’s very risky situation for your friendship. So I would just mean, mean, it sounds like therapy speak, but maintain your boundaries of like, you know, I don’t want to take frantic phone calls about him at 11 at night on a Tuesday. Like, you know, I hear that you’re in a distressing situation. I’m free tomorrow at noon to talk like

Talia Koren (48:00.667)
Yeah.

Anna Goldfarb (48:13.26)
You have to look out for yourself and make sure that you’re not overextending yourself or getting involved in drama. For something that’s not, you don’t have much influence over anyway.

Talia Koren (48:25.201)
Right, it’s not really your circus. know? Yeah.

Anna Goldfarb (48:27.68)
It’s not your circus, right? So that’s where things can get sticky is when these boundaries are getting blurred of like your friend relies on you too much because their partner is a shithead. Sorry for swearing. And that’s when you need to be like, what’s going on here, dude? Like, I can’t keep talking about this endlessly. It’s a lot. It is a lot. It is a lot.

Talia Koren (48:48.037)
Yeah, it’s a lot. It’s hard. is really tricky to have this. Again, it comes back to what you were saying earlier about maturity. Like you do have to have the maturity to know that it’s not your place to really comment. Especially maybe if you say your piece once and that’s it. And then from there or to set a boundary, be like, you know what, this isn’t helpful for me. Like your comments on my who I’m dating and I rather we talk about other things like.

Anna Goldfarb (48:55.118)
Yeah.

Anna Goldfarb (49:09.357)
Yeah.

Talia Koren (49:14.125)
then you have to also know not to talk about your at least as much maybe with that person. It changes. Like you’re saying, you have to kind of adapt and change. Yeah.

Anna Goldfarb (49:20.98)
It totally changes and it will probably change again. And one thing that’s helpful is both things can be true. You can be a devoted friend, but you can also be someone who doesn’t enjoy the company of your friend’s partner.

Talia Koren (49:28.387)
Ugh. Yeah.

Talia Koren (49:35.218)
Yeah. OK, so I have two dating dilemmas. I don’t know which way I want to go. One is about, kind of what we were talking earlier, like friends to more. But there’s a little bit complexity there. And one was about on my phone. I got it like 10 minutes ago about a friend who is frustrated with her friends because they’re not as into politics as much. They don’t care about the issues that are happening as much. Which one are you feeling more right now?

Anna Goldfarb (49:56.27)
Hmm.

Anna Goldfarb (50:01.394)
What was the first one again? I was looking at your hair and it was very shiny. Talia, it was so beautiful that I got distracted. It’s like that is so shiny. I’m like, what is she wearing? Like, that like a, is that an oil? Okay, let’s try this again. First question.

Talia Koren (50:03.437)
Is the kind of like, my hair. thank you.

Thank you, just, I did it for you.

The first one was about, it’s like friends, this guy has a crush on his friend, he already asked her out, but he wants to ask her out again kind of thing. And the other one’s more about just like my friends don’t seem to care about the issues like I do. Kind like the turtle thing we were saying earlier.

Anna Goldfarb (50:33.346)
I think it’s the turtle thing, I think is becoming more and more of a sticking point. Yeah, relevant.

Talia Koren (50:39.237)
relevant. Okay, so let me just pull that up. me one second because I this is a classic Talia like switcheroo. This is the turtle thing. Okay, let me just pull this up. Okay, so here’s a dilemma. It’s not a dating dilemma, but it is definitely a relevant one for today’s current landscape of the world. So I would love to hear your take on this.

Anna Goldfarb (50:43.63)
It is the turtle thing. is totally the turtle thing.

Anna Goldfarb (50:58.702)
Hmm.

Talia Koren (51:03.409)
What to do about friends who are apathetic and apparently don’t care enough about human rights and crimes against humanity mainstream media Complicity enough to keep themselves informed take action and speak out But who are good friends and peep and good people otherwise not everyone is an activist at heart not everyone has the capacity to digest what is happening and turn that into action But at the same time it’s exhausting for me to keep having to educate people on international law and human rights. I’m an international lawyer

the importance of small actions like protesting, sharing truthful news from alternative sources, source of media, and boycotting.

So any advice for this person?

Anna Goldfarb (51:40.931)
Well, you know, one of the this one of the big and I don’t mean to make light of these issues by equating it to a turtle. Like I. Yes, yes, it’s I’m I’m not making light of these. These are like obviously in like crucial issues of our time. So I’m not trying to minimize that at all. I know that one of the biggest reasons that friendships buckle is a value mismatch.

Talia Koren (51:48.687)
Yeah. We’re gonna reference the turtle thing we talked about earlier. It’s not making light of this, but it’s a, yeah.

Anna Goldfarb (52:09.612)
So what this letter writer might be feeling is that my values aren’t aligning with my friends. These values are very important to me and I’m not feeling it. So that is a valid reason that friendships fade. I don’t think that her friends, I think when she says that she’s educating her friends, what that’s making me, what that’s.

Talia Koren (52:15.217)
Hmm.

Anna Goldfarb (52:36.352)
triggering for me is is she trying to dominate her friends by saying I need to educate you. Like you need to get on my level. You need to care what I care about. And that could be pushing her friends away, which is making unless they say like, wait, tell me about these issues. Like, wait, I want to know more. You’re what’s your take on this? If if if this letter writer, I almost feel a contempt for her friends like I need to educate them. I need to get them up to speed. And that is

Talia Koren (52:40.369)
I was thinking the same thing.

Anna Goldfarb (53:05.698)
going to alienate these friends naturally.

Talia Koren (53:07.723)
Mm-hmm. Okay, so then is her move to find newer connections or focus on current connections that align with her more and downgrade these friends a bit and kind of stop engaging them with them as much? what is, because like, I don’t, agree, she’s not going to like make her turn her friends into, onto her level of passion for this, which is frustrating, but it’s like, what do you do in this scenario?

Anna Goldfarb (53:27.192)
Yeah.

Anna Goldfarb (53:34.959)
I think it’s important to look at why these friendships exist. What is the about? Are these friends from like when she was younger and there she’s still reaching out to these people because she’s used to being she’s almost in a feels entitled to these friendships like we’ve had them for so long. Like of course I’m going to reach out to these people. She sounds younger. I don’t know if like that’s her vibe but

Talia Koren (53:39.781)
Hmm. Yeah.

Anna Goldfarb (54:05.414)
I think that this isn’t working because her values are so integral. The values around these issues are so integral to her identity that she’s just feeling the mismatch with these friends. to answer your, I sort of didn’t even answer your question. To answer the question, yes, she could meet with other people who are just as involved in these issues, but she might find that they differ on other values.

Talia Koren (54:07.845)
Mm-hmm.

Anna Goldfarb (54:33.698)
Like there’s other things they have mismatches on. So when you find out, we actually don’t look at this other huge issue the same way. We’re actually totally different diametrically opposite on.

Talia Koren (54:44.057)
Right. Well, that’s what this is where as you’re talking, I’m thinking about the flexibility thing that you mentioned earlier. It’s like, can you have the flexibility of like, OK, I’m going to focus on these other connections where they match my energy around this one thing, but like match my energy less around other things. And like, can you just have that flexibility based on what’s important to you at the moment, which is a lot what your book is about is like, can you kind of choose your friends and who’s your

Anna Goldfarb (54:49.879)
Yeah.

Anna Goldfarb (55:06.744)
Yeah.

Talia Koren (55:10.257)
close friend circle and you’re out of friend circle based on what is compelling to you right now.

Anna Goldfarb (55:15.584)
Yeah, I wouldn’t tell her to read my book so that she would read Modern Friendship, like to understand what is happening. And listen, I have friends for different things. That’s more of an achievable, sustainable mindset is I actually have different political viewpoints from some of my closest friends. But listen, how are we going to change our mind? How am I going to influence someone I care about if I don’t show her? Well, that’s actually how I feel about this issue. And

Talia Koren (55:19.077)
You would, yeah.

Talia Koren (55:40.667)
Mm-hmm.

Anna Goldfarb (55:44.283)
I never thought of it that way. Like, this is how a democracy is supposed to work. You’re supposed to share ideas. There’s been this inversion of democracy of I want it used to be, you know, this book Habits of the Heart from 1985 lays out these issues perfectly about individualism. And we used to fight for the right to meet with other types of people. That was the First Amendment. We want to see other people change ideas.

Now we want freedom from other people. We don’t want to have to listen to everyone. We listen to we want we want to like withdraw when we want to. It’s totally inverted of I don’t want to talk to these people. I want to just not be challenged. I don’t want to want to be in my bubble. Well said. So I would like I would really fit. Yeah, I would tell her to like listen. Friends have different strengths. They all play different roles and to

Talia Koren (56:20.197)
That’s so interesting. That’s so interesting.

be in my bubble, yeah. Yeah.

Okay, this is good advice to read your book.

Anna Goldfarb (56:41.454)
to just be really, I don’t know, I think she’s just gonna have to fuck around and find out. Like, listen, when you go really hard like that, and like you have to tell your friends you have to meet the standard, I think she’s gonna have to learn that lesson of why would someone wanna stick around for a friend who feels like you’re not on my standard? Why would they wanna be your friends? Why would they wanna continue to invest if you feel like you have to educate them or talk? Even that word is like, that’s…

Talia Koren (57:02.342)
Yeah.

Anna Goldfarb (57:11.68)
might be alienating people when my hope for her is that she’d bring people in. How are people going to care about what you care about? If you’re saying what you what you guys let when you’re being judgy. You know, that’s one of the seven habits of disconnection that Dr. William Glasser talks about is being judgy and criticizing friends don’t want friends like that. So I’m worried that her question is the wrong question of it. Like, how do I how do I get these bitches on my level?

Talia Koren (57:17.434)
Mmm.

Talia Koren (57:24.774)
Right.

Talia Koren (57:28.291)
is being judgy.

Talia Koren (57:41.745)
No.

Anna Goldfarb (57:41.934)
Which is not what she’s saying, by the way. I can hear her being like, my god, Anna is totally misinterpreting what I’m saying. Yes.

Talia Koren (57:47.589)
No, this person just really cares about this and wants her friends to care too and is also concerned that her friends don’t care and then is questioning everything. It makes, I get it. Yeah.

Anna Goldfarb (57:54.935)
Yes. And that’s my fear is that that’s how it’s being perceived by her friends is why can’t I get on her like I’m not good enough. Like I’m not smart enough. I’m not enough. So, you know, some one more quick thing about that is people misunderstand about friendship. They think that they would feel happier with more friends, but it’s really the happiness comes from people identifying us as their best friend of us being chosen.

Talia Koren (58:01.081)
Right. Right.

Talia Koren (58:06.833)
Mmm, yeah. Okay.

Talia Koren (58:13.072)
Yeah.

Anna Goldfarb (58:24.758)
And what I’m hearing from this letter, what’s triggering for me is, know, why are these people, why should I keep these people around? Instead of like, what can I be doing to help my friends love having me around so that we feel, so I can be a part of their lives. I love that. I admire them. Like I want to be in their life so badly. Like how can I, you know, bridge this gap? How can I mend this? And more sounds like why aren’t they, are they even making the cut?

Talia Koren (58:39.237)
Mmm.

Duh.

Talia Koren (58:48.433)
Right.

Anna Goldfarb (58:54.286)
for me.

Talia Koren (58:55.683)
Interesting, but it’s like, okay, but if Yeah, but but yeah, but I feel I feel like if it’s like If this is where she’s coming from, this is her point of view It’s like maybe she’s admiring them the less because they don’t she’s real she’s waking up to something It’s like they don’t actually care about this thing. I think is really important So I admire them less and maybe it is just like maybe I need do need to downgrade them like That is it’s okay. If that is the move I think

Anna Goldfarb (58:56.792)
That could be my own thing. That could be my own baggage too, but that’s what I’m hearing from.

Anna Goldfarb (59:10.006)
Yeah, they don’t feel admired.

Anna Goldfarb (59:20.8)
Yes, and the-

It’s totally okay. And it sounds like she’s in a place where she has to have this absolute kind, like an absolute threshold. And she might have to explore that and learn the hard way of, listen, this isn’t how people work. isn’t how people work.

Talia Koren (59:31.227)
Yeah.

Talia Koren (59:36.933)
Yeah.

Talia Koren (59:42.851)
I really appreciate you answering that with me. That was a tough one and also just so relevant. Before we wrap up, what’s one more belief about friendship you wish people would let go of?

Anna Goldfarb (59:55.316)
affections that they think affection is enough to keep a friendship active. It’s not enough. It’s not enough to keep a friendship active of I like you, I miss you, I care about you. It needs to be the about what are we doing together? What are we talking about? How does that help me today? You know, I think that is the number one misconception people have. And also to learn that there’s active and nostalgic friendships where be realistic. What is this friendship today?

Talia Koren (59:59.693)
okay.

Talia Koren (01:00:18.053)
Yeah.

Anna Goldfarb (01:00:24.632)
How do I help this other person with their life? I don’t, and I haven’t seen them in eight months, and we have no relationship. Well, then let me update my thinking about the friendship of, OK, it’s a nostalgic friendship. We don’t really have a reason to be in touch. It doesn’t mean that we don’t care for each other. But you need more than care to keep a friendship active.

Talia Koren (01:00:42.502)
Yeah.

Talia Koren (01:00:47.023)
Amazing, great advice. Anna, this has been awesome. Where can we get more of you?

Anna Goldfarb (01:00:50.734)
Thank you. You can check me out online at Anna Goldfarb on Instagram. I still have fun on Instagram. I love when people DM me like I read your book. I loved it. It makes me feel so good. I have a sub stack called Friendship Explained, which is AnnaGoldfarb.substack.com. yeah, check out my book Modern Friendship. It’s really I have a free book excerpt on my site, AnnaGoldfarb.com too. So if you want to check it out,

Make sure that it’s up your alley. There’s no email sign up required. Truly just check out a few pages. And if you’re into it, I’d love to have you as a reader come check it out.

Talia Koren (01:01:32.145)
Thank you so much. I will link all that in the show notes. It’s been such a pleasure, Anna. Thank you.

Anna Goldfarb (01:01:36.729)
Thank you for having me and let’s be friends. I wanna know why you’re here.